Halladay Retires

[Former Twins GM (Steve)]

Is he a HOFer? Going by "feel" and his dominance and durability I would say yes.

I think his stats may not do it for him though...but I think many future pitchers will not come close to the benchmarks we've become accustomed to.


15 years
203 Wins
105 Losses
3.38 ERA
1.18 WHIP

1 perfecto, 1 no - hitter (in playoffs)
67 Complete games -- pretty impressive

What do you all think?!

[Former Nationals GM (Alan)]

People often say that a decade of dominance will also get you in to the HOF as well. Halladay has more wins that Koufax, who is generally the one pitcher used as the guideline for decade of dominance talk. ERA was higher than Koufax by .6, but I would also think that pitching in the AL East for most of the years is much harder than it was for Koufax back then.

I think HOF criteria should be both the set numbers people talk about, 500HR, 3000 hits, 300 wins etc, but also players who dominate for a decade. Torii Hunter will never have the HOF numbers, but can anyone argue that he wasn't the best CF in the game for the first ten years of this century? He could affect the game with both is bat and glove.

The problem today with people is also the media. How many people in Kansas or Montana watched Koufax actually pitch outside of his World Series games that were televised? Sometimes when people read about his games via newspaper or heard about them from word of mouth, the perception can become much greater than the reality. Now I'm not saying Koufax is overrated, but merely stating that access to todays players is much more common than before. Thus it does water down amazing catches or numbers when we are exposed to how many of them are really out there.

Case in point. What are the chances of a player hitting .290 with 25 HR and 76 RBI winning an MVP award? Well that was the line for Kirk Gibson when he won the award in '88. I was 14 that summer and I can remember games from that year like it was yesterday. Gibson won one game against the Expos when there was a passed ball in the 9th and he scored from 2nd base. That's not just about speed folks, that's about hustling your ass from 2nd to 3rd and then being able to make it home because you weren't just jogging in like most players do. Gibson meant more to the team those numbers he put up.

I know this has turned in to a rant and gone on for much longer than it should have, but I just think the system is majorly flawed. How can guys like Brett, Yount, Ryan, and Gehrig (my fave of all time) plus many others not get 100% of the votes? There will never be a perfect player to deserve 100% then. God forbid that the media was how it is today back when Mantle or Ruth were playing. Unless you murder people or beat women , what you do off the field is your business, UNLESS that falls over on to the field. I.E Bonds and the others that did 'roids and Rose with his betting on games he managed in.

[Former Twins GM (Steve)]

So yes?

[Former A's GM (Shannon)]

I say no, not enough wins. Not saying he wasn't the best we have seen the past 10 yrs but he needed at least 250 to get in the HOF.

[Former Nationals GM (Alan)]

I was saying yes, LOL. Halladay deserves kudos for retiring as opposed to hanging on as long as he can. Guys like Glavine hung on for much longer, he pitched until he was 43. Glavine has over 270 more GS than Halladay, yet only 100 more wins. I use Glavine here because I think he belongs in the HOF as well.

Jack Morris is another one who belongs in the hall. If people really broke down all of the SP's in the HOF and compared numbers, a guy like Morris is right there. Plus he was one of the top SP's of the 80's, let alone pitching good in the 90's AND being a big time P in the playoffs.

[Former Twins GM (Steve)]

My point is that i don't think 250 or 300 W's will be a reasonable number that any recent pitcher will ever come close to achieving.

I clicked through the Cy Young Voting for the last 15 years and it's only a FEW pitchers that I even half way consider would be included in this analysis.

It took Randy Johnson 22 years to get to 303 wins. So he's the next OBVIOUS one to me in 2015...He pitched til he was 45. He had 4 Cy Youngs in a row though. If he wouldn't have pitched into his 40s he only would have had 230 wins...but his pure dominance AND longevity get him in. Would be interesting to see if he had quit earlier to see if he got in.

I don't see Verlander getting to 250 (he has 137 right now and that's 9 years into his career)

I guess i possibly could see Felix Hernandez getting to 250 (He has 110 right now and that's 9 years into his career, but he's only 27)...so he could keep this pace up and get there by 36?

CC Sabathia is at 205 after 13 years...and he's 33...he could keep it up and get to 250.

I just don't know if 250 is a minimum anymore...pitchers aren't going to pitch til 45...

[BK Dodgers GM (Man)]

The Koufax comparison seems pretty apt. I'd go for it, if Halladay gets voted into the HoF.

RE: pitching into their 40's, I don't know. Bartolo Colon's doing it.

RE: Verlander, I can see him avg ~15 wins/season -- maybe more -- for the rest of his contract w/ 6 years remaining (into his age 36 season). That would give him another ~90 wins for something close to ~230 total. Unless he retires right after that contract, which seems unlikely to me (unless there's some career ending injury, etc.), I could easily see him go another couple seasons at say ~10 wins/season. So I can definitely see him getting to 250 wins unless the Tigers suck badly and/or serious injuries keep him down, either of which can certainly happen though he's been so very durable unlike most other solid SPs.

IF anything, I think King Felix is more likely to go down w/ something than Verlander at this point plus his team still sucks w/ no clear end in sight, which has kept him from winning 15 for the 4th straight season. But yeah, he does have the age advantage and will probably need it to chase down Verlander for win total unless he leaves Seattle (or they finally turns things around)...

[Reds GM (Graham)]

I think Doc makes it. How many pitchers currently playing will get close to his 67 complete games? Plus he led MLB in IP 4 years running. 300 wins is way beyond anybody these days, it just isn't possible barring some extraordinary good luck, and even 250 is beyond most - unless they play to 45 or whatever.

Halladay was a dominant pitcher on a mediocre team in the hardest division in baseball, you can't get much better than that, no matter what purists might think.

[Former Giants GM (Andrew)]

Dec 11, 2013 14:12:40 GMT -5 BK Dodgers GM (Man) said:

IF anything, I think King Felix is more likely to go down w/ something than Verlander at this point...

I ain't selling low! ;D

[Former Twins GM (Steve)]

The interesting thing is how awful the election process is. I looked at a couple of mock ballots for the next few years...you have to get 75% to get in. Each writer gets to vote for 10 players...but each year people like Bonds and Clemens remain on the ballot and are getting the minimum to remain the following year. Glavine and Maddux get in soon but they keep watering down the pool with people that writers wont elect.

www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2015.shtml

I just think the process sucks and the purists and righteous writers will destroy the HOF.